An important step towards 3D gaming was the ability to scale sprites or tiles by nonintegral factors. Examples of the former from the eighties were the arcade games Pole Position, Outrun, Space Harrier and Afterburner; a subsequent example of the latter was the SNES Mode 7, used in many games for that machine.
Accustomed to modern hardware, one tends to expect antialiasing; that is, for each screen pixel, the system locates the corresponding data pixel, and if the answer lands between two data pixels, instead of just picking one or the other, it calculates a weighted average of the two.
But https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ says
I don't deny the advantages of treating classic games as something that can be improved upon: N64 emulators employ stunning high-resolution texture packs and 1080p upscaling, while SNES emulators often provide 2x anti-aliasing for Mode7 graphics and cubic-spline interpolation for audio samples. Such emulated games look and sound better. While there is nothing wrong with this, it is contrary to the goal of writing a hardware-accurate emulator.
This suggests the SNES did not actually have antialiasing.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards
The Sega Model 2 is an arcade system board released by Sega in 1993. Like the Model 1, it was developed in cooperation with Martin Marietta, and is a further advancement of the earlier Model 1 system. The most noticeable improvement was texture mapping, which enabled polygons to be painted with bitmap images, as opposed to the limited monotone flat shading that Model 1 supported. The Model 2 also introduced the use of texture filtering and texture anti-aliasing.
This suggests Sega arcade machines likewise did not have antialiasing before 1993. A surprising conclusion from today's perspective, but then, the transistors required for the extra calculations might've been a significant cost in those days, and arcade games were fast-moving and CRT TV displays were somewhat blurry anyway. And certainly it would not have been affordable in software on eighties-vintage CPUs.
Are the above inferences correct? Did antialiasing hardware only start being available in arcade and home games machines in the early to mid nineties?
hardware graphics snes sega
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
add a comment |
An important step towards 3D gaming was the ability to scale sprites or tiles by nonintegral factors. Examples of the former from the eighties were the arcade games Pole Position, Outrun, Space Harrier and Afterburner; a subsequent example of the latter was the SNES Mode 7, used in many games for that machine.
Accustomed to modern hardware, one tends to expect antialiasing; that is, for each screen pixel, the system locates the corresponding data pixel, and if the answer lands between two data pixels, instead of just picking one or the other, it calculates a weighted average of the two.
But https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ says
I don't deny the advantages of treating classic games as something that can be improved upon: N64 emulators employ stunning high-resolution texture packs and 1080p upscaling, while SNES emulators often provide 2x anti-aliasing for Mode7 graphics and cubic-spline interpolation for audio samples. Such emulated games look and sound better. While there is nothing wrong with this, it is contrary to the goal of writing a hardware-accurate emulator.
This suggests the SNES did not actually have antialiasing.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards
The Sega Model 2 is an arcade system board released by Sega in 1993. Like the Model 1, it was developed in cooperation with Martin Marietta, and is a further advancement of the earlier Model 1 system. The most noticeable improvement was texture mapping, which enabled polygons to be painted with bitmap images, as opposed to the limited monotone flat shading that Model 1 supported. The Model 2 also introduced the use of texture filtering and texture anti-aliasing.
This suggests Sega arcade machines likewise did not have antialiasing before 1993. A surprising conclusion from today's perspective, but then, the transistors required for the extra calculations might've been a significant cost in those days, and arcade games were fast-moving and CRT TV displays were somewhat blurry anyway. And certainly it would not have been affordable in software on eighties-vintage CPUs.
Are the above inferences correct? Did antialiasing hardware only start being available in arcade and home games machines in the early to mid nineties?
hardware graphics snes sega
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
Is there a difference between "texture filtering" and "texture antialiasing"?
– traal
7 hours ago
@traal Per Tommy's answer, apparently so!
– rwallace
7 hours ago
This described is a primitive form of anti-aliasing. Much more advanced ones exist.
– mathreadler
2 hours ago
@rwallace I added hardware to the title to make clear that this question is about such done in hardware when scaling/rotating, not when done by software and/or prescaled/-rotated elements, which was done already as early as on the Atari 800.
– Raffzahn
41 mins ago
add a comment |
An important step towards 3D gaming was the ability to scale sprites or tiles by nonintegral factors. Examples of the former from the eighties were the arcade games Pole Position, Outrun, Space Harrier and Afterburner; a subsequent example of the latter was the SNES Mode 7, used in many games for that machine.
Accustomed to modern hardware, one tends to expect antialiasing; that is, for each screen pixel, the system locates the corresponding data pixel, and if the answer lands between two data pixels, instead of just picking one or the other, it calculates a weighted average of the two.
But https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ says
I don't deny the advantages of treating classic games as something that can be improved upon: N64 emulators employ stunning high-resolution texture packs and 1080p upscaling, while SNES emulators often provide 2x anti-aliasing for Mode7 graphics and cubic-spline interpolation for audio samples. Such emulated games look and sound better. While there is nothing wrong with this, it is contrary to the goal of writing a hardware-accurate emulator.
This suggests the SNES did not actually have antialiasing.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards
The Sega Model 2 is an arcade system board released by Sega in 1993. Like the Model 1, it was developed in cooperation with Martin Marietta, and is a further advancement of the earlier Model 1 system. The most noticeable improvement was texture mapping, which enabled polygons to be painted with bitmap images, as opposed to the limited monotone flat shading that Model 1 supported. The Model 2 also introduced the use of texture filtering and texture anti-aliasing.
This suggests Sega arcade machines likewise did not have antialiasing before 1993. A surprising conclusion from today's perspective, but then, the transistors required for the extra calculations might've been a significant cost in those days, and arcade games were fast-moving and CRT TV displays were somewhat blurry anyway. And certainly it would not have been affordable in software on eighties-vintage CPUs.
Are the above inferences correct? Did antialiasing hardware only start being available in arcade and home games machines in the early to mid nineties?
hardware graphics snes sega
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
An important step towards 3D gaming was the ability to scale sprites or tiles by nonintegral factors. Examples of the former from the eighties were the arcade games Pole Position, Outrun, Space Harrier and Afterburner; a subsequent example of the latter was the SNES Mode 7, used in many games for that machine.
Accustomed to modern hardware, one tends to expect antialiasing; that is, for each screen pixel, the system locates the corresponding data pixel, and if the answer lands between two data pixels, instead of just picking one or the other, it calculates a weighted average of the two.
But https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/ says
I don't deny the advantages of treating classic games as something that can be improved upon: N64 emulators employ stunning high-resolution texture packs and 1080p upscaling, while SNES emulators often provide 2x anti-aliasing for Mode7 graphics and cubic-spline interpolation for audio samples. Such emulated games look and sound better. While there is nothing wrong with this, it is contrary to the goal of writing a hardware-accurate emulator.
This suggests the SNES did not actually have antialiasing.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_arcade_system_boards
The Sega Model 2 is an arcade system board released by Sega in 1993. Like the Model 1, it was developed in cooperation with Martin Marietta, and is a further advancement of the earlier Model 1 system. The most noticeable improvement was texture mapping, which enabled polygons to be painted with bitmap images, as opposed to the limited monotone flat shading that Model 1 supported. The Model 2 also introduced the use of texture filtering and texture anti-aliasing.
This suggests Sega arcade machines likewise did not have antialiasing before 1993. A surprising conclusion from today's perspective, but then, the transistors required for the extra calculations might've been a significant cost in those days, and arcade games were fast-moving and CRT TV displays were somewhat blurry anyway. And certainly it would not have been affordable in software on eighties-vintage CPUs.
Are the above inferences correct? Did antialiasing hardware only start being available in arcade and home games machines in the early to mid nineties?
hardware graphics snes sega
hardware graphics snes sega
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
edited 44 mins ago
Raffzahn
52.9k6126213
52.9k6126213
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
asked 8 hours ago
rwallacerwallace
9,601448141
9,601448141
Is there a difference between "texture filtering" and "texture antialiasing"?
– traal
7 hours ago
@traal Per Tommy's answer, apparently so!
– rwallace
7 hours ago
This described is a primitive form of anti-aliasing. Much more advanced ones exist.
– mathreadler
2 hours ago
@rwallace I added hardware to the title to make clear that this question is about such done in hardware when scaling/rotating, not when done by software and/or prescaled/-rotated elements, which was done already as early as on the Atari 800.
– Raffzahn
41 mins ago
add a comment |
Is there a difference between "texture filtering" and "texture antialiasing"?
– traal
7 hours ago
@traal Per Tommy's answer, apparently so!
– rwallace
7 hours ago
This described is a primitive form of anti-aliasing. Much more advanced ones exist.
– mathreadler
2 hours ago
@rwallace I added hardware to the title to make clear that this question is about such done in hardware when scaling/rotating, not when done by software and/or prescaled/-rotated elements, which was done already as early as on the Atari 800.
– Raffzahn
41 mins ago
Is there a difference between "texture filtering" and "texture antialiasing"?
– traal
7 hours ago
Is there a difference between "texture filtering" and "texture antialiasing"?
– traal
7 hours ago
@traal Per Tommy's answer, apparently so!
– rwallace
7 hours ago
@traal Per Tommy's answer, apparently so!
– rwallace
7 hours ago
This described is a primitive form of anti-aliasing. Much more advanced ones exist.
– mathreadler
2 hours ago
This described is a primitive form of anti-aliasing. Much more advanced ones exist.
– mathreadler
2 hours ago
@rwallace I added hardware to the title to make clear that this question is about such done in hardware when scaling/rotating, not when done by software and/or prescaled/-rotated elements, which was done already as early as on the Atari 800.
– Raffzahn
41 mins ago
@rwallace I added hardware to the title to make clear that this question is about such done in hardware when scaling/rotating, not when done by software and/or prescaled/-rotated elements, which was done already as early as on the Atari 800.
– Raffzahn
41 mins ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
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There's something of a conflation here of antialiasing and filtering, I think. Antialiasing is literally preventing things from adopting aliases — e.g. if a diagonal line looks like a staircase rather than a diagonal line, it has adopted an alias. So you can imagine the same thing happening to textures as they rotate or take awkward angles. But it's always about accurately portraying the information you have.
Conversely, bilinear filtering is just a different way of guessing at what is between the information you have. It's about generating extra information — specifically positing that there's a linear gradient between every source pixel and the next, rather than a hard edge.
That being said: no, the SNES does neither. It's a simple nearest-neighbour colour grab only. Ditto for the scaling systems that precede it — including the Lynx in the home (and anywhere else you want to take it; I suggest the battery shop) and arcade machines like Sega's.
This is true up to the Saturn and Playstation. The Nintendo 64 has bilinear filtering, and everything after that unambiguously has both*.
So I believe the sources are correct.
*) you can technically fake antialiasing on anything with subpixel precision and alpha transparency by drawing multiple passes with slightly adjusted coordinates. So an N64 could do that, it'd just be expensive.
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
4
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
1
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
1
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
add a comment |
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There's something of a conflation here of antialiasing and filtering, I think. Antialiasing is literally preventing things from adopting aliases — e.g. if a diagonal line looks like a staircase rather than a diagonal line, it has adopted an alias. So you can imagine the same thing happening to textures as they rotate or take awkward angles. But it's always about accurately portraying the information you have.
Conversely, bilinear filtering is just a different way of guessing at what is between the information you have. It's about generating extra information — specifically positing that there's a linear gradient between every source pixel and the next, rather than a hard edge.
That being said: no, the SNES does neither. It's a simple nearest-neighbour colour grab only. Ditto for the scaling systems that precede it — including the Lynx in the home (and anywhere else you want to take it; I suggest the battery shop) and arcade machines like Sega's.
This is true up to the Saturn and Playstation. The Nintendo 64 has bilinear filtering, and everything after that unambiguously has both*.
So I believe the sources are correct.
*) you can technically fake antialiasing on anything with subpixel precision and alpha transparency by drawing multiple passes with slightly adjusted coordinates. So an N64 could do that, it'd just be expensive.
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
4
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
1
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
1
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
add a comment |
There's something of a conflation here of antialiasing and filtering, I think. Antialiasing is literally preventing things from adopting aliases — e.g. if a diagonal line looks like a staircase rather than a diagonal line, it has adopted an alias. So you can imagine the same thing happening to textures as they rotate or take awkward angles. But it's always about accurately portraying the information you have.
Conversely, bilinear filtering is just a different way of guessing at what is between the information you have. It's about generating extra information — specifically positing that there's a linear gradient between every source pixel and the next, rather than a hard edge.
That being said: no, the SNES does neither. It's a simple nearest-neighbour colour grab only. Ditto for the scaling systems that precede it — including the Lynx in the home (and anywhere else you want to take it; I suggest the battery shop) and arcade machines like Sega's.
This is true up to the Saturn and Playstation. The Nintendo 64 has bilinear filtering, and everything after that unambiguously has both*.
So I believe the sources are correct.
*) you can technically fake antialiasing on anything with subpixel precision and alpha transparency by drawing multiple passes with slightly adjusted coordinates. So an N64 could do that, it'd just be expensive.
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
4
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
1
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
1
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
add a comment |
There's something of a conflation here of antialiasing and filtering, I think. Antialiasing is literally preventing things from adopting aliases — e.g. if a diagonal line looks like a staircase rather than a diagonal line, it has adopted an alias. So you can imagine the same thing happening to textures as they rotate or take awkward angles. But it's always about accurately portraying the information you have.
Conversely, bilinear filtering is just a different way of guessing at what is between the information you have. It's about generating extra information — specifically positing that there's a linear gradient between every source pixel and the next, rather than a hard edge.
That being said: no, the SNES does neither. It's a simple nearest-neighbour colour grab only. Ditto for the scaling systems that precede it — including the Lynx in the home (and anywhere else you want to take it; I suggest the battery shop) and arcade machines like Sega's.
This is true up to the Saturn and Playstation. The Nintendo 64 has bilinear filtering, and everything after that unambiguously has both*.
So I believe the sources are correct.
*) you can technically fake antialiasing on anything with subpixel precision and alpha transparency by drawing multiple passes with slightly adjusted coordinates. So an N64 could do that, it'd just be expensive.
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
There's something of a conflation here of antialiasing and filtering, I think. Antialiasing is literally preventing things from adopting aliases — e.g. if a diagonal line looks like a staircase rather than a diagonal line, it has adopted an alias. So you can imagine the same thing happening to textures as they rotate or take awkward angles. But it's always about accurately portraying the information you have.
Conversely, bilinear filtering is just a different way of guessing at what is between the information you have. It's about generating extra information — specifically positing that there's a linear gradient between every source pixel and the next, rather than a hard edge.
That being said: no, the SNES does neither. It's a simple nearest-neighbour colour grab only. Ditto for the scaling systems that precede it — including the Lynx in the home (and anywhere else you want to take it; I suggest the battery shop) and arcade machines like Sega's.
This is true up to the Saturn and Playstation. The Nintendo 64 has bilinear filtering, and everything after that unambiguously has both*.
So I believe the sources are correct.
*) you can technically fake antialiasing on anything with subpixel precision and alpha transparency by drawing multiple passes with slightly adjusted coordinates. So an N64 could do that, it'd just be expensive.
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
answered 8 hours ago
TommyTommy
15.2k14174
15.2k14174
4
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
1
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
1
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
add a comment |
4
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
1
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
1
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
4
4
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
Yah, in common use anti-aliasing refers to edge anti-aliasing done to remove aliasing artifacts (jaggies) that appear at edges of rasterized triangles, but simple bilinear filtering removes aliasing artifacts that can appear over the entirety of texture-mapped triangles. The shimmering textures in old games that don't use filtering is probably the most obvious example of this.
– Ross Ridge
7 hours ago
1
1
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
@RossRidge to be slightly contrary, bilinear filtering makes a difference only when textures are larger than they should be. Mipmapping attempts to eliminate shimmering on distant polygons. Though trilinear filtering is blending between bilinear filtering of two mipmap levels.
– Tommy
21 mins ago
1
1
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
(Mipmapping = providing additional scaled down copies of a texture ahead of time and picking one based on the output density when you draw, so that you're not trying to scale down very much in real time. So you can do an expensive down scaling and then just look it up. Usually a box filter or a Gaussian(-esque) low-pass filter.)
– Tommy
18 mins ago
add a comment |
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Is there a difference between "texture filtering" and "texture antialiasing"?
– traal
7 hours ago
@traal Per Tommy's answer, apparently so!
– rwallace
7 hours ago
This described is a primitive form of anti-aliasing. Much more advanced ones exist.
– mathreadler
2 hours ago
@rwallace I added hardware to the title to make clear that this question is about such done in hardware when scaling/rotating, not when done by software and/or prescaled/-rotated elements, which was done already as early as on the Atari 800.
– Raffzahn
41 mins ago